Tuesday, July 12, 2011

Discussion with Non-Muslim 6

AbdulAziz: Some Non-Muslims are still not convinced that God exists, so in this topic I will give you logical proofs that God exists that can't be refuted. Even though, I personally think that the answer to your question" Does God Exists" is self-evident, existence of God needs no proof. However, in this topic, I will give introductions where we both can agree, after we agree on the introduction I will go on. A proof is required in matters that do not realize the obvious, but the things that obviously can't be understood is where we need to guide, without what I call "obvious" there will not be evidence, for evidence overcomes another when its based on obvious. What I mean by obvious is that Human having a beginning, human dies, fire is hot...etc an act requires an actor it does not need to be proved or demonstrate it, and also significant impact on moving does not need to be proved, those things is known obviously, and common sense. By common sense I mean we exist and if you don't believe that you exist, you have bigger problems, something I can't help you with so I would suggest you to save your time and don't look into this post.

I think most of us by common sense realize that there are things which come into existence, we also know by common sense that everything that comes into existence is caused to exist by something else (Depending on something) for there cannot be an infinite series of past causes. Therefore, there exists a first cause which did not come into existence. In other words, the first cause always existed.
Do we agree so far!?

Non-Muslim: There cannot be an infinite series of past causes. Why?

AbdulAziz: The cause of the invalidity of the sequence is that each act is based on its cause (We call it in Arabic العلة cause or reason), and its previous cause but its caused by a reaction to its previous cause. Since the sequence will continue indefinitely, we will see the act will not get to its last cause.

Non-Muslim: Even if there is an omnipotent being who created all this, I don't think it's the same god that the Bible or the Quran speaks of

AbdulAziz: Maybe those who wrote the Bible defined God wrongly but at least God defined himself perfectly and the possibility of that omnipotent not being the God that Quran speaks of is 0. For clear definition of God's qualities and attributes read my other post "Allah's Names & Attributes" 

Non-Muslim: So who created Allah if everything needs a creator and this is obvious??  Or  should I not ask because its so obvious??

AbdulAziz: This is even though obvious but some people may be not aware of simple logic. Which I will try to help you now, before answering your question "Who created God" I must check if the question is valid or not. It is known philosophically that all that has a beginning has something caused it to begin, however God doesn't have a beginning, and therefore your protest cannot be applied because it's wrong question, you cannot ask something that has nothing before it what was before you! you cannot ask something that has no end for it what's after you! Since God is the creator he cannot be created, you cannot say you are alive and are dead at the same time, you are either alive or you are dead. That's pure logic and obvious.

Non-Muslim: This 'proof', assuming it is right, doesn't prove the existence of God. It just proves that there is a first mover, whatever that may be. It could be anything really.

AbdulAziz: Regardless of what you call God, first mover, the first, the source, God, Allah, the almighty, omnipotent...etc I want to prove that what most humans define as "God" who is having perfect qualities and attributes exists for real.

Non-Muslim: Actions can happen without th intervention of any intelligence. Radioactive decay, volcanoes, sexual reproduction, etc..

AbdulAziz: So are you suggesting an action can happen out of no cause!? for example are you suggesting that if I kicked a ball and it moved, are you suggesting the ball did move "without a cause" ?

Non-Muslim: For you it should matter if the first mover is actually an intelligent being, or something without intelligence. It doesn't require intelligence for a super nova to occur or a volcano to erupt. "Stuff" happens on a constant basis without intervention by intelligent beings.

AbdulAziz: At least we proved there is a first mover a first cause, so at least we agree there should be something known as the “First” now the second part is to prove whether this first intents or have any intelligence or not and we can prove that by the intended care of creatures. I refer to what we see and feel about the intended care of these creatures in general and humans in particular. This care is around the whole world, if we view everything in the universe from the sun, the moon and other planets, day and night, birth of creatures, the cause of the rain, wind and water, the reason for building parts of the earth, and consider the wisdom behind the humans, plants and wild animals. It is not possible that such is that in all parts of the world of man and animal and plant by no intention and purpose. Watching the discipline and commitment to the full system proves there is intention, intelligence behind them. For example If I gave you the newest IPhone and after you learned all the features of that mobile, calling, calculating, capturing photos…etc hundreds of features you can never claim it was created without intelligence, the first thing that comes in mind is that was created by professionals who knows what they are doing, not randomly putting mixing materials together which resulted in that mobile, the moment you claim the last be prepared to hear the laughs of those around you

Non-Muslim: If I asked you to prove to someone else that I exist what would you do?

AbdulAziz: The moment you ask me you proved that someone else that you exists, so you saved me the efforts to do so J plus your existence is as clear as the sun light, so when someone asks to prove his existence it proves the one asking is not seeking the truth because only someone who is arrogant or with a diseased heart, would demand evidence for those self-evident truths. He may not even be satisfied with rational evidence. In spite of that I will start by defining what a man is and I will continue like how I prove the existence of God. By the speaking of man he is that amazing creature who doesn’t accept and regards as impossible that anything devised by himself or his fellow creatures could exist without an artificer. Unfortunately, however, there are some among them who think and accept that this entire exposed and hidden universe can exist without an Artificer.

Isn't it Descartes, the French philosopher,  who said ‘Even though I feel imperfection in myself, I feel at the same time there must be a Perfect Being and I find myself obliged to believe that this feeling was implanted in me by the Perfect Being which is characterized by all attributes of perfection, which is God. Have you ever read what Isaac Newton, the well-known English physicist, who discovered the law of gravity said: ‘Don’t doubt the Creator, because it is inconceivable that accidents alone could be the controller of this universe.” Finally I will quote what the Herschel said: The more knowledge we have, the more irrefutable proofs we obtain for the existence of an Eternal Creator with infinite power. Geologists, mathematicians, astronomers and biologists have co-operated in setting up the edifice of science which is the edifice of God’s greatness. If you are still looking for evidence, be prepared.

((سَنُرِيهِمْ آيَاتِنَا فِي الْآفَاقِ وَفِي أَنفُسِهِمْ حَتَّى يَتَبَيَّنَ لَهُمْ أَنَّهُ الْحَقُّ أَوَلَمْ يَكْفِ بِرَبِّكَ أَنَّهُ عَلَى كُلِّ شَيْءٍ شَهِيدٌ((
سورة فصلت الآية 53

"Soon will We show them our Signs in the (furthest) regions (of the earth), and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the Truth. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things?’"

Holy Quran (Chapter 41 Verse 053)

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